Choosing & Budgeting Hardwood Floors

Posted on April 9, 2010 by BeatingUpwind

A few days ago Dan and I went out to look at plumbing fixtures and hardwood floors just to get an idea of how much we should budget. We randomly stopped at State of The Art Wood Flooring Group over in Murray Hill (it was between the subway and Smolka). The guy at State of the Art was great and patiently answered our questions. Later in the day we did a quick stop at Lumber Liquidators just to get an idea of how cheap wood floors can go.

We want a good wood floor, but aren’t going for anything exotic. Our stair treads will be wood, so we need the same species of wood throughout the house – that would get very expensive if we went with a rare wood. That means we’re going to use oak. It’s a great material, plentiful and well priced.

White Oak vs. Red Oak

There are two primary types of oak – red oak and white oak. Dan’s been wanting white oak since it’s easier to stain any color, however red oak is a little less expensive. I was just researching the difference between the two and came across a forum thread that described how white oak has a closed pore structure and red oak has an open pore structure. That means red oak should not be used in wet conditions. (Which means when we redid our old boat’s mast step using red oak we made a pretty big mistake. The mast step sits in the bilge – so it’s frequently submerged in water. Oh well, apologies to the person who bought the boat from us!) So that makes white oak the better, more versatile choice unless you want the reddish color you get with red oak.

Solid Wood vs. Engineered Wood

One thing we did learn by visiting State of The Art Wood Flooring was that engineered wood floors don’t necessarily look like we thought they looked. Both Dan and I thought engineered floors were always glossy, but that’s not the case at all. They had engineered floors in the showroom that had these really cool finishes on them. They were a matte finish and had a little bit of texture to them. They looked like wood that had just been oiled a bit – quite beautiful actually. The texture they had on them is one that’s impossible to replicate with a solid wood floor unless you’re willing to spend big bucks. So it’s odd that the engineered floor looked more natural than solid wood… Go figure. (Of course there were plenty with a high gloss finish as well.)

Another difference between solid and engineered is that solid wood flooring needs to sit in the building for a couple weeks before installation in order to acclimate. Engineered wood doesn’t expand and contract nearly as much, so it can be put down the same day it gets to the job site.

We already knew the two were installed differently. Once engineered is down you have to be very careful about protecting it since it’s pre-finished. The flooring guy said it should go down at the very end of the project right before you do baseboards. That means the contractor we interviewed who had put it down before he’d fully closed up the walls was making a mistake. By contrast you can put solid wood floors down earlier in the process and while you have to be careful to avoid staining them, dirt won’t hurt them because they’ll be sanded during the finishing process.

For the rental unit where we may want to sand the floors every few years to freshen up the apartment, solid wood floors are best because they can be sanded many more times than an engineered floor. We’ve also decided on solid wood for our own unit because we’re going to need to match the appearance with the stair treads and matching factory finished wood could be impossible.

[By the way – don’t even think about laminate flooring. It’s essentially junky wood (or a plastic) with the equivalent of a wood grain wallpaper applied to it. Rarely ever a good idea…]

Flat Cut vs. Quarter Sawn vs. Rift Sawn

How you cut the boards from the tree makes a difference in the grain you get…

flat quarter rift diagram

Flat sawn is the standard and least expensive way to make wood flooring. When you see oak floors that have a lot of wavy grain in them – they’re flat cut. On the other end of the spectrum is rift sawn flooring. Here the grain is perfectly uniform and all in nice linear lines that run the length of the board. But if you look at the diagram you can see that because it’s a radial cut, there’s a lot of wasted wood. Quarter sawn is a compromise between flat and rift. The grain is much more uniform than with flat cut, but not as perfect looking as rift sawn – you’ll get banded lines across the boards, which can actually be quite pretty. There’s not nearly as much wastage with quarter sawn as there is with rift cuts so quarter sawn is less expensive than rift.

We also learned that there’s a category called “quarter sawn or rift sawn” that’s cheaper than just quarter sawn. If you look at the diagram you’ll see there’s one large rift sawn board in every set of quarter sawn cuts. It takes time to separate that board from the others, so if you’re OK with either then you’ll pay a little less.

Quality

There are different qualities of wood. If you don’t mind knots, then you’ll save money by getting “natural grade”. However, if you want a cleaner look with no knots then you’ll want to get “select grade”.

The Price Points

For starters there’s a range of prices for both engineered and solid wood and those ranges overlap a lot. You have to first find what you like and then look at the price. Don’t go into it thinking you want an engineered floor so you can save money. You may find the solid wood floor you like is less expensive than the engineered floor you like.

With solid vs engineered you also have to factor in the cost of installation which is much lower for engineered floors. As a general rule of thumb a solid floor will cost $4.50 to $5/sq. ft. to install, so you need to add that to the cost when you compare the prices.

Cut rate prices on 3/4″ thick unfinished solid wood flooring (from Lumber Liquidators)…

$2.89 – 4″ Red Oak, flat cut, natural grade
$2.99 – 4″ Red Oak, flat cut, select grade
$3.19 – 4″ White Oak, flat cut, select grade
$3.29 – 2 1/4″ Red Oak, quarter sawn, select grade
$3.49 – 3 1/4″ Red Oak, quarter sawn, select grade
$3.99 – 2 1/4″ White Oak, quarter sawn, select grade

They also said that given the square footage we’re doing we could take about 20 cents off each of those prices.

State of the Art Wood Flooring had a much higher quality selection to choose from, still for a basic wood floor their prices weren’t all that different than Lumber Liquidators…

approx $4/sq. ft. for unfinished 4″ white oak
approx $15/sq. ft. for unfinished oak precut for a chevron pattern
approx $13/sq. ft. for finished, engineered floor
approx $19/sq. ft. for finished, engineered cut into a chevron pattern

Add $4.50 to $5 for finishing and you see that unfinished solid wood comes out a bit less expensive than a nice engineered floor. I’m pretty sure those prices were for flat cut, select grade, so you can see Lumber Liquidators saves you approximately 25%. Still, we’re just talking about $1/sq. ft. to go with a full-service, high-quality flooring company. I’m sorta inclined to pay the extra to get the service and quality…

What We’re Budgeting

Rental (cellar level) – TBD
The rental unit (ground floor) – 3 1/4″ white oak, flat cut, natural grade – $8.50/sq. ft.
Parlor floor (areas with chevron pattern) – 2 1/4″ white oak, quarter or rift sawn, select grade – $20/sq. ft.
Parlor floor (areas with straight boards) – 3 1/4″ white oak, quarter or rift sawn, select grade – $10.50/sq. ft.
2nd floor (master bedroom, etc.) – 4″ white oak, quarter or rift sawn, select grade – $10.50/sq. ft.
3rd floor (office, guest bedroom) – 3 1/4″ white oak, flat cut, select grade – $9.00/sq. ft.
4th floor (stair hallway) – 3 1/4″ white oak, flat cut, select grade – $9.00/sq. ft.
4th floor (Dan’s art studio) – commercial grade vinyl flooring TBD

So basically $10/sq. ft. or double that where there’s a pattern.

The Kitchen Starts To Take Shape…

Posted on April 7, 2010 by BeatingUpwind

Early last week we went to Ikea in Paramus. We were having fantasies that we’d like high end of Ikea well enough to live with it for 5-10 years before we replaced it with what we really wanted – a high-end European modular system. But we didn’t see any Ikea kitchens we’d want to live with (we should have known that would be the case). We did find a great one for the rental unit, but nothing for us. On the way home from there we were driving past Poggenpohl so we stopped in. We know we can’t afford a high end modular Euorpean kitchen, but we wondered if we could afford a basic one. All the stuff we liked at Poggenpohl was at the upper end of their price range and the rest of it didn’t really resonate with us.

On Good Friday we headed over to the A&D building to do two things – 1) try to get inspiration and ideas for what we can and should be doing in terms of finishing details, and 2) to understand the price points. We started at Poliform since our old kitchen had been a Poliform kitchen. The Poliform showroom is now massive – takes up a whole floor – but everything was being ripped out and redone in preparation for a May relaunch of their showroom just before ICFF. Long story short Poliform blew us off and told us a few days later that they weren’t going to bother to do a proposal for us because they expected prices to fluctuate before we would be buying (a completely lame excuse, IMHO).

We stopped at a number of other kitchen places but our favorite was Eggersmann – a German company that’s only just started selling in the US. Their stuff was INCREDIBLE (take a look at their website), and the sales person who was helping us was not only nice and helpful, but she also knew her product backwards and forwards and so she was extremely informative. And kudos to them for being the first ones to get back to us with a proposal. And the proposal wasn’t just a sales sheet – there was a whole 3D mockup… These guys are GOOD!

Here’s what they came up with – realize this is just a first draft…

The ceiling height is wrong – it’s 10 1/2 feet and they don’t show the stairs and the doors will have glass panels in them, but it’s great first shot…

As they should, the renderings got us wondering about the layout of our kitchen. For starters, notice the similarity of the layout with our old kitchen…

Both have a tall vertical (the fridge) to the left, then the range in the center and the sink off to the left. As much as we loved our old kitchen, we want something new… To that end we’re thinking the sink or possibly a cooktop could go in the island to change things up.

The first rendering also made us realize that we don’t really want the closet right inside the front door. It makes the space too narrow. So we’re going to move it down where it’s opposite the stairs and then put a long bench across from the kitchen and narrow the island and remove the stools. That will give a wider walkway with a lot more shoulder room, but we’ll still have a place to sit to put on and take off our shoes and a place guests can hang out while Dan’s making dinner.

Unfortunately, while we love Eggersmann, we may not be able to afford them. The price they came back with was double what we paid for our Poliform kitchen 5 years ago. Even if we cut back on how much they do (not do the entry closet, etc.) their price may still not fit into our budget – we’ll see… But if you’re doing a renovation and like a modernist aesthetic, we highly recommend them – their stuff is possibly the best we’ve seen.

We’re also having Siematic spec a “lower end” kitchen (by their standards). If that doesn’t come in at a price we can afford and we can’t afford Eggermann then we’ll probably give up doing a European modular system and go with a “custom kitchen”. The problem is local craftsman don’t have the same abilities as the European factories. That means we have to be careful to design the kitchen in a way they can execute properly. That’s a lot more work for us, but it is what it is…

Surprisingly High Comp For A Harlem Townhouse Shell

Posted on April 7, 2010 by BeatingUpwind

Harlem Bespoke just pointed out that 11 West 119th Street sold recently – for $400,000! That might seem like a low price, but actually it’s a surprisingly high price. The building is 14′ x 38′ on a shallow 65′ lot. 14′ x 38′ x 4 stories = approx. 2,128 sq. ft. So the cost per square foot was $188/sq. ft. By contrast we bought ours a few blocks away for $118/sq. ft. If 11 West 119th had sold for our price per square foot the price would have been $250,000. The final asking price was $450K. I’m not sure why the buyer only got $50K off final asking when most people buying similar properties tend to get $150-200K off asking. (For example, we got $265K off what they were asking when we started bidding).

During our search we went through the one 2 doors down – 7 West 119th Street. It was fully renovated with some high end finishes (Sub Zero fridge, but just “better than rental” cabinetry). It wound up selling for $1.0983M. It’s hard to figure out the square footage of #7. Officially it’s 2,794 sq. ft. so it officially sold for $393/sq. ft. However, the City has it’s length at 47′ when all it’s sibling neighbors are officially 38′. I don’t remember it being pushed out in the back and the permit they pulled said no enlargement was proposed. It’s on a lot with a diagonal back line – one side it’s 54′ deep, the other it’s 58′ deep. I remember the back yard basically being a small deck, but it the short side was definitely more than 7′ feet long. So I really think the square footage of #7 is smaller and more inline with it’s neighbors. On top of everything else they did a double height living room so it was probably under 2,000 of real square feet. If it were 2,000 sq. ft. then the price per square foot would have been $549/sq. ft. which is way over what the other comps support. By comparison the incredible one on Strivers’ Row went for $505/sq. ft.

11 West 119th is a SMALL townhouse that shouldn’t be made into more than a single family home (#7 was made into a 2 family with a tiny studio apartment and I think it was a mistake). It’s not not in a historic district (though it is literally adjacent to a one). It’s steps from East Harlem where values are somewhat lower. It’s across the street from (relatively nice) public housing. So I’m not seeing how the property commanded $188/sq. ft. But with both #7 and #11 selling way over what the comps support — apparently they’re smoking really good over at that end of West 119th Street! 😉

No matter – this is a great comp for those of us who own townhouses. Be happy! And for the new owners of #7 and #11 West 119th Street – the values will go up in the coming years and they’ll still make money when they sell.

But honestly – if you’re looking to buy a Harlem townhouse shell – get a damn good real estate broker and a subscription to Property Shark that includes comps and really get to know what things are actually selling for (as opposed to what they’re listed for). A Property Shark membership is WAY cheaper than overpaying for real estate.

Budgeting Tile – Cost Per Square Foot

Posted on April 7, 2010 by BeatingUpwind

I’m going to start doing quick blog posts on different things that need to be budgeted for construction/renovation. First up is tile. We went into a few tile stores to figure out price points we should be using for budgeting. Some were completely unhelpful when they heard we were just budgeting and not ready to buy, but others were great and told us what we should be thinking in terms of cost per square foot.

Studium in the A& D Building, and Kaleidoscope Tile in Chelsea were both extremely helpful and I’d recommend visiting both. Studium is pretty high end but has some surprising bargains. When we told the sales person we were on a budget his face dropped, there was an awkward pause for about 2 seconds, and then he picked right back up enthusiastically and showed us options that were perfect for people on a budget. Kaleidoscope Tile feels lower end, has good prices, and has some tiles that can deliver a very elegant look.

Low-end “builder’s grade” – about $4/sq. ft.
- e.g. 4″ x 4″ glazed tiles (the ones you see in bathrooms from the ’50s and ’60s)
Nice, inexpensive tile – about $7-8/sq. ft.
- Great for walls, may or may not be not be suitable for floors
- e.g. large format porcelain tiles (12″ x 24″)
- e.g. 12″ x 12″ stone tiles (common stone, nothing exotic)
- e.g. 1″ x 3″ carrera marble (if you can find someone who handles them in high volume)
Better quality tile for floors, etc. – $15-20/sq. ft.
- e.g. better stone in simple patterns
High quality for accents, trim, etc. – $30-35/sq. ft.
- e.g. sheets of staggered thin strips of carrera marble
- 1″ x 1″ ceramic tiles for floors
Crazy expensive stuff if you have way too much money – $80-100/sq. ft.
- e.g. architectural glass

(Prices do not include tax, etc.)

Here are some of the price points we’re using:

Rental unit bathroom

Wall tile – $7/sq. ft.
Floor tile – $13/sq. ft.

Rental unit kitchen

Floor tile – $15/sq. ft.
Backsplash – $15/sq. ft.

Our kitchen

Backsplash – $33/sq. ft.

Parlor floor half bath

Wall tile – $15/sq. ft.
Floor tile – $35/sq. ft.

Master bath

Accent wall – $35/sq. ft.
Other wall tile – $13/sq. ft.
Floor tile – $35/sq. ft.

2nd full bathroom

Small accent area – $35/sq. ft.
Other wall tile – $9/sq. ft.
Floor tile – $33/sq. ft.

Of course, we’ll go under on some and over on others, but those prices should give us a realistic amount of money to work with. Of course it helps that our bathrooms will be relatively small – so less tile will be required, keeping costs down and letting us spend more per square foot.

Looking For A Shell In Harlem? Check out 243 West 120th Street

Posted on April 3, 2010 by BeatingUpwind

After we took the first look at the place we wound up buying, we noticed 243 West 120th Street and had our broker get us in even though it wasn’t officially on the market. I really liked this building. We bid on it, but our bid wasn’t accepted. It’s now officially back on the market and the price has been reduced to $795K. If you’re looking for a shell I think it’s one of the most interesting townhouses on the market – and possibly one of the best investment properties – if you can get it for the right price.

There are two big things the building has going for it. First, location – it’s practically in the heart of all the redevelopment and buzz that’s happening in South Harlem. Walk across St. Nicholas Avenue and you’re in the middle of everything that’s hot and trendy in Harlem – Nectar wine bar, Moca Lounge, etc. And it’s also close to the A,B,C and D trains at 125 – so it’s just 1 stop from 59th Street.

The second thing the building has going for it are its development possibilities. You can (and probably should) invest a $1 million in this building, and when you’re done it’ll be worth more than you put into it (if you’re smart about how you spend the money). Because most of the lot is within 100 feet of St. Nicholas Ave, it has a FAR just under 6 (which means you can expand the building far bigger than you can other townhouses that have a 3.44 FAR), and it’s got a C1-4 commercial overlay, so you can have the option of a commercial tenant on the ground floor (but it has to be one that services the immediate neighborhood).

It’s currently a 4 story building. If I were buying the building I’d push the back wall back to maximize square footage and add two partial floors on top. I’d configure it with three units. Because the building is only 17 feet wide you don’t really want to make it more than 3 family. The basement would be one unit with the possibility of a commercial tenant. The parlor floor could be a two bedroom apartment, and the top two existing floors plus the two floors I’d add would be a large quadraplex. You could step back each of the additional floors and allow for outdoor terraces making the quadraplex an incredible space with tremendous outdoor space…

In the picture above you can see that there is an alley along the west side of the building. There are a number of existing windows in that wall. The rules about lot line windows apply, but it’s a great to have windows in your bathrooms and a wall you can exhaust vents out of.

As you can see the façade and the stoop need a lot of work. But as you move inside the original floors and a some original details are still intact…

243 West 120th Street top floor

(click on any image to see a bigger version of it)

I have to say going through the building was a bit unsettling. There were clothes and sleeping bags left over from when homeless used to live in the building. The staircase was a bit rickety, and there was a dead cat in the basement. But all of those things are easy to fix.

While you can buy this building and not expand it beyond it’s current 3,400 sq. ft. it’s best if you plan on making the building substantially larger. The construction will be pretty expensive given that you’ll want to add two floors and push the rear wall back, and you may need to reinforce the foundation to support the additional floors and you might want to lower the floor in the cellar – none of which comes cheap. But given the area, you can spend the money and have it come back to you.

In terms of price it’s currently at $795K. Townhouses typically sell for around $200K off their asking prices, so I’d guess it’ll sell for around $600K, maybe a bit higher. $600K would be $176/sq. ft. which is high for a shell, but the location and development possibilities explain why it’s at the high end for a shell. Even if you spent $200/sq. ft. renovating it (no expansion) you’d still be under $400/sq. ft. which is supported by the comps. If you want to expand the building I think you’ll find that cost effective as well.

I should also say something about the tax situation. The taxes are quite high – $9,664/year. Most townhouses pay about 1/3rd that amount. The current owner sorta messed up. He should have pulled a permit to convert it to 2-3 family, started construction, and gotten Department of Finance to reclassify the building and bring the taxes down. This is actually a good example of what I was talking about in the previous post – you don’t want to convert this building to 4 (+) family because the taxes will remain high and the additional rental income may not cover the higher taxes. 2 or 3 family makes a lot more sense in this case. If you can get it reclassified as 2 or 3 family, then the assessed value will drop to $10,200 (6% of the market value of $170K), which is far lower than the current transitional assessed value of $72,990. The taxes on $10,200 would be $1,745 – nearly $8K less than what’s being paid now. DOF will up the market value because you’re doing work on the building, but you’ll still pay substantially less than what’s being paid now.

It’s probably worth mentioning that we bid $575K on it back in November 2009 and it was rejected – we were told we weren’t even close. I would have gone up to $600K and possibly a bit higher if we had access to the money, but the ‘no’ was so resounding we never went back with another bid. It wouldn’t surprise me if the owner currently feels a bit firm at $795K, so it could take some negotiation to get the price you want…

Whether you get this building or another I recommend you have a real estate broker who’s an aggressive negotiator. Norman Horowitz (the listing agent) is a good guy, but I wouldn’t go to him directly since you will be wanting to negotiate a significant amount off the asking price. If you’re looking for a tough negotiator who really works for her clients, we recommend Maria McCallister of Barak Realty – she’s proven herself to us in both the sale of our apartment and the purchase of our townhouse.